Lead Balloon Ep. 63 - A.I. Podcast Host Invasion: Inception Point's Business Model & the Podcast Industry's Reaction

With Jeff Umbro and Ronald Young, Jr.

Earlier this month, a new startup announced that they would be using artificial intelligence to churn out thousands of podcast episodes voiced by A.I. podcast hosts.

A.I. "podcasters" Clare Delish, Oly Bennett and Nigel Thistledown appear in Hollywood Reporter.

Inception Point A.I. claims to be able to fashion 3,000 podcast episodes a week at a paltry cost of $1 per episode, and plans to flood the market with massive amounts of content in the hopes of generating revenue through programmatic advertising.

But the reaction to their market entrance was anything but warm and welcoming. Podcast industry stalwarts and professional communicators expressed shock and outrage that the startup would resort to such a low-quality, high-volume tactic.

Many raised ethical questions about replacing human insights with A.I.-generated "slop," and concerns abounded about job losses in an already contracting industry.

A different perspective on Clare Delish, Oly Bennett and Nigel Thistledown.

In a post to her LinkedIn, Inception Point A.I. CEO Jeanine Wright was flamed by dozens of angry comments from incensed audio professionals.

Some objected strenuously to bizarre comments where Wright declared that "half the people on the planet will be AI" in the near future. Others were upset by her decision to cast critics of the business model as "probably lazy Luddites."

So obviously this story is a PERFECT fit for us here on Lead Balloon.

First, we'll discuss the industry reaction, the PR faceplant and the dubious business model with Jeff Umbro—CEO of the Podglomerate, host of the show "Podcast Perspectives," and a leading authority on the state of the podcast industry.

And then we'll cover the moral implications of A.I. podcast hosts with Ronald Young, Jr. , "Best Podcast Host" winner at this year's Ambies Podcast Academy Awards and creator of award-winning podcasts including "Weight For It."

Ultimately, whether you consider communication an artistic act OR a professional pursuit, we'll unpack the implications and repercussions of a world where big tech insiders try to replace the HUMAN in the human act of communication.

A note: we spoke with Inception Point A.I. CEO Jeanine Wright and invited her to respond to our questions about the company's business model and ethics. Ultimately, she chose not to provide us with any commentary prior to our publishing deadline.

Transcript:

Dusty Weis

Earlier this month, a new startup announced that they would be using artificial intelligence to churn out thousands of podcast episodes voiced by AI podcast hosts.

And honestly, it could not have gone worse for them.

Now, LinkedIn is normally home to some of the blandest comment sections and the brand-safest sentiments.

But on her post announcing that this company was emerging from stealth, the incipient CEO of Inception Point AI got lit up like a Christmas tree by angry and disappointed commenters.

For many, myself included, it seems that this application of AI replacing the human in the human act of communication crosses the very reddest of red lines in this brave new world of questionably synthetic content.

Clare Delish, A.I. Podcast Host

Grab all that yummy flavor stuck to the pan. Easy, right besties?

Dusty Weis

So in this episode, whether communication is a human act or a business strategy to you, let's take a look at this notion of outsourcing that job to a robot.

First, a look at the bizarre, provocative, and disastrous way that Inception Point AI announced its business model to the world with one of the podcast industry's foremost experts.

Jeff Umbro

Maybe Jeanine was a little bit surprised by the amount of vitriol that came from this announcement. I will say that, among other things, I would not have recommended using that quote.

Dusty Weis

And then, in both a practical and moral sense, can artificial intelligence host a podcast? What does it mean for society if it does? We'll ask the best podcast host in the business, literally the back-to-back winner of Best podcast host at the Podcast Academy Awards. Ronald Young, Jr. joins us.

Ronald Young, Jr.

It spits in the face of all the real human work. We have cut tape. We have written scripts. We have taken all of our recording equipment over to somebody’s house, set up a mic stand and done the recording ourselves.

Dusty Weis

I'm Dusty Weis. From Podcamp Media, this is Lead Balloon, a podcast about important tales from the worlds of PR, marketing and branding, told by the well-meaning communications professionals who live them.

Thank you for tuning in.

We're joined now by Jeff Umbro, CEO of the Podglomerate, one of the industry's leading podcast promotion, monetization and production agencies.

He's the host of Podcast Perspectives, an excellent show about the business of podcasting and... new achievement just unlocked here, Jeff... PR Daily just announced its new list, and your Podglomerate is the top podcast production and marketing agency on that list.

So congratulations on that. And thank you for joining us here on Lead Balloon.

Jeff Umbro

Thank you. Very, very glad to be here. Very proud of that achievement and really excited to talk to you. I've been a fan for a long time.

Dusty Weis

I've been a fan of yours for a long time and, happy to finally be able to have you on my show. I've had an appearance on Podcast Perspectives over the years. I'll put in one more plug. It's a great show for anybody who's interested in the business of podcasting.

But in that business of podcasting, Jeff, I got to say, it has been a rough year for a lot of folks in the podcast industry.

Ad revenues have been in a bad place due to economic uncertainty. There have been a lot of layoffs. Prominent podcast production companies have gone out of business entirely. And then this month, we get this announcement from a new company called Inception Point AI. And it kind of landed like a bag of hammers.

Do you recall a podcast industry announcement that has ever been this poorly received, and why do you think there was such uproar over this?

How the Luminary Controversy is Like Inception Point A.I.

Jeff Umbro

Yeah, there's one that comes to mind and it's Luminary, which launched back in like 2019, I think. So Luminary was a kind of first of its kind. There had been a few precursors that had actually done very well, but, they were aiming to be kind of the Netflix of podcasting, where they would charge a monthly subscription fee and you would get really high quality, ad free content on their platform, mostly exclusive to their platform.

They really went heavy on, like launching the idea of like ads were bad for podcasting. And there was like one meme in particular, of like a cat holding up a sign, and I don't remember what it said, but it's like, you know, don't you want to live with ad free podcasts or something like that? It just kind of fell on its face.

And everybody in the industry was really upset with the messaging that they had put out because they at the time had like been really happy with the ad supported ecosystem, this company coming in and just like planting their flag in the ground, that they're going to be the best podcast company out there. They're not going to have any ads.

And like, you know, screw everybody who still wants to listen to ads...

Dusty Weis

Attacking the business model, if you will.

Jeff Umbro

Yeah. And I'm sure I'm skewing this a little bit. It's been 5 or 6 years since this happened, but where I think Luminary overlaps with Inception Point AI is that Inception Point AI is this company that has presumably been operating since 2023, but it was founded by a team of people including Jeanine Wright, who is a very successful podcast executive who has worked at Simplecast during its acquisition by Sirius XM, then went to AdsWizz, which is also owned by Sirius XM.

She was the COO of Wondery for a couple of years.

Dusty Weis

Wondery is Amazon's podcast production wing. So a huge provider of content to the ecosystem.

Why Are People Upset About Inception Point A.I.?

Jeff Umbro

And you know, she has been a board advisor for a number of companies, including Wonder Media, which was just acquired by Acast. And I've met Jeanine a few times and I think she's wonderful. I have never had a bad experience with her. I think she's great.

And I say all of this just to note that, like, she clearly has an understanding of the ecosystem and knows what she's doing.

Jeanine comes in, announces this company, The Hollywood Reporter does like a feature on this new company, which can generate 5000 episodes of a podcast a month for $1 per episode. And they're going to monetize that through programmatic ads and eventually, like “half the world will be made up of AI personalities” and...

Dusty Weis

Which is a quote that she said in the release that made a lot of people's eyebrows shoot off their heads.

Jeff Umbro

Yeah, and, you know, there was one particular quote that's been re-quoted a lot, where it's like, “if you call this ‘AI slop,’ then you're a lazy Luddite.” So there are probably better ways to, like, launch your company.

But the reaction to this is that, like, quite a few people in the industry announced, like, how upset they are through LinkedIn posts and blog posts and newsletters, because they view “AI slop” as they call it...

I'm not going to call it that, but, AI slop is a risk to their livelihoods. It is going to clog the ecosystem. It will, presumably like, take some lessons from people, who have put more time and energy into creating these shows via, like, simple SEO optimization stuff. It'll take some of the ad dollars out of the ecosystem.

And, you know, if people can create a podcast using AI for a dollar an episode, why would they hire somebody for a few thousand bucks to do it? So the reaction to it was not great.

So that is kind of like the scene that we are in today. And the commonalities between what happened with Luminary and what happened with Inception Point AI is that seemingly both of these companies launched, denigrating like a commonly accepted practice within the industry, like a blind spot when it came to announcing this. When it comes to like how this may impact the rest of the industry.

Dusty Weis

It caught a lot of people flat-footed and could have massive ripple effects, although we could certainly look back at the Luminary thing and say that the threat, if you want to call it that, was maybe a little bit overhyped with the Luminary thing.

But let's dive in a little bit more to the business model that Inception Point AI is proposing. Because I think that a lot of people don't necessarily understand how money gets made in podcasting.

And in fact, I know that you know that I know that you know that most people don't understand how money gets made in podcasting. What is the business model here? How are they proposing to generate revenue?

How Does Inception Point A.I. Make Money?

Jeff Umbro

So there's a few different ways in which people make money with podcasting.

And ultimately in podcasting, the most common way that people make money is through advertising. There's also live events, premium subscription models, derivative IP and many other things that people do.

But for the focus of this conversation, we'll talk about ad revenue. Within the ad revenue ecosystem, there's really three main ways that people can monetize a show.

One is through direct brand partnerships. The second way is working with, you know, these ten agencies that represent 90% of the brands that you hear in podcasting. They're generally direct response ads, which means like, I will give you a link to go to, you will get a discount on this product or first month free or whatever. And then I'm able to track the engagement and conversion of when somebody uses that promo code or goes to that URL.

And then the third way in which people can purchase ads on a podcast is what's known as programmatic advertising. This is essentially, a big platform is able to take the IP addresses of the listeners, map out the demographic data, which is anonymized, and then you do this on some massive scale.

So if Megaphone is serving ads to a million different listeners, they're able to do two impressions from that show, a thousand impressions from this show, 5 million impressions from this show, all serving that one demographic.

So Unilever makes one buy, Megaphone distributes this, and then people make a fractional amount of the revenue that came from that particular buy.

Dusty Weis

And to kind of like drill down on it a little bit more, programmatic is sort of the low-hanging fruit of podcast advertising, right? As a podcast producer or production company, you essentially provide the show... the content, if you will... and you say, I want ads at the ten-minute mark, at the 15-minute mark, at the 25-minute mark, and then the ads are automatically served up by Megaphone or by whatever third party that you're partnered with.

Jeff Umbro

Megaphone. Simplecast. Libsyn. ART19, several others.

Dusty Weis

And then you get paid out on a CPM or cost per thousand impressions basis. It's not a lot of money CPM, but if you have a large enough audience for your one show, you can make quite a bit of money at programmatic advertising.

Conversely, if you have a lot of shows and a lot of episodes with a very small audience, you can also make a similar amount of money.

So is it oversimplification to say that the business model that they're driving at at Inception Point AI is essentially “quantity over quality?”

Jeff Umbro

Yeah, I think there's a few ways to look at it. So when you're selling programmatic ads, ultimately you want scale because you'll make a lower CPM or cost per thousand downloads. But if you have scale then like you quantify that by like impressions times CPM, so if you have millions of downloads, you can actually make a decent amount of money there.

Now, you know, that might be like a dollar for every thousand listeners, it might be $0.80, whatever that is. There is a model in which you try to drive scale and, Inception Point AI is trying to do that by essentially flooding the market with podcasts that are of varying quality, that are all derived from AI tools that are optimized for search.

So in this article, they mentioned, for example, like somebody may be interested in a knitting podcast. So at a very low price point, they're able to make ten different knitting podcasts, optimize the SEO for each of those podcasts and see which ones are like the cream of the crop and rise to the top.

So they're able to maximize the impact of the number of people who are going to find that particular show through AB testing at a very low price point, which is something that human beings aren't able to do without putting a lot of time and energy into it.

So essentially the business model is I want to spend a dollar, to make this show, and then I want to earn $2 on this show. And to be honest, it's a very decent model with super low margins that, like, has potential risk involved in it for a number of reasons that we can get into.

But yeah, ultimately the model is to push for scale. You know, we will drive programmatic ad revenue.

And then the second part of this that I don't think a lot of people are talking about is, Jeanine referenced in the piece that like, she thinks that half the world will be AI like formed influencers in the future.

And we see a couple examples of this in other industries, like on Instagram or something.

But I don't think it's a stretch to say that, like they do imagine a point in which some of their influencers will be popular enough to then unlock these, like direct response and direct sales, and they will be able to charge a lot more money for advertising on those properties.

Dusty Weis

Presumably because these AI influencers that they've built will have amassed enough of a following that they'll be able to charge for that. And that is some Blade Runner kind of stuff that still makes my head spin a little bit.

But I want to point out that this business model that they're proposing is not necessarily innovative or novel. Right?

I mean, when these new AI tools started to come online about two years ago, I think there were a lot of us who looked at them and said, oh, there's a way to generate a ton of really low quality content at mass scale. Was it just a matter of time until somebody tried to launch the business model that Inception Point AI is now launching?

What Other Companies Have Tried A.I. Podcast Hosts?

Jeff Umbro

Yeah, there are people who have thought about doing this before.

In fact, Podglomerate actually did this once, and then we just never published it.

We saw this coming. We knew that somebody would do this eventually. And so we wanted to be able to do this and thought that we may be able to get some learnings that we could apply to, like our current services packages.

Essentially, you can like draft a script using ChatGPT or some other LLM. You can plug this into a number of tools like Wonder Craft or others to generate some AI host induced voice that will read this. There are video platforms that will do the same thing. And then somebody can go in... and I'm sure you can write a script that's beyond my ability to do it, but to automatically upload like these to your hosting platform, serve those through an RSS feed to any listeners.

So we actually built this whole model and thought about doing this and we never released it, in and I've talked to some other people who had kind of talked about doing the same thing.

Dusty Weis

Why not? What was the hesitation there?

What Are the Risks of A.I.-Hosted Podcasts?

Jeff Umbro

Well, it's basically what we’re seeing now.

I thought that the industry would react negatively to this because of the whole idea that their skilled services were being undervalued and underappreciated through these different tools. There's a big risk of like copyright infringement, because these LLMs are all pulling data from preexisting sources...

Dusty Weis

God only knows where.

Jeff Umbro

Yeah. Even if you just set it to read Wikipedia, which is Creative Commons technically, like somebody at some point is going to be upset about that.

There's a lot of brand reputation risk. And we talked about this a lot. Like if this was a Podglomerate product, would this then incur wrath on the rest of the services that we offer and actually have like a net negative impact on like our business line?

So it's not like these are problems that people hadn't anticipated.

Dusty Weis

Other than... and I'll push back on this here. I'm still not convinced... and this is just me personally... but I'm still not convinced that listeners want or will accept AI-generated podcast hosts. And that's where... I've invited Jeanine to join us and she might I'm hoping that she does. But I want to know what data they have or what inkling or what hunch they have that people actually want to consume podcasts and social media content that is from non-human synthetic AIs.

Jeff Umbro

Well there are examples of that all over social media. And of like influencers that are completely AI generated, and especially in different industries, that have millions of followers and a lot of engagement. So it's already kind of proven that it can be done.

Dusty Weis

But is that the new rule or is that the exception that proves the rule?

Is the novelty part of what sells it? And once we’re flooded with it, it loses all its appeal.

Jeff Umbro

Yeah, I think it's the exception for now. And, and I want to be clear, like, I'm paying very close attention to all of this stuff, but I have no intention of ever doing any of these things.

At the same time, I think that anybody who's ignoring this is probably doing themselves a disservice because this is coming.

They're going to continue to get better and better. Like what we're seeing right now are like first generation cell phones. Like the iPhone is going to come out at some point and people are going to want to engage with that. And it doesn't necessarily need to be like, you know, the new host of The Daily or something, but it could be somebody who's really interested in getting updates from Y-Combinator.

This, by the way, is a podcast that already exists. Wonder Craft created a show in partnership with Y Combinator that just reads the top ten posts on Hacker News every day, and they have a podcast host that people have engaged with.

I don't think anybody really cares about the hosts, they just want to get the news of the day. It's more of a digest than anything. Each of these shows, by the way, have in different circumstances, like hundreds or thousands of listeners that are engaging with them.

And so there are people who are interested in certain regards to, like, engaging with this stuff because it genuinely makes their lives easier.

Like, I don't think that this is necessarily a good thing for human beings working in the industry.

I also don't think this means that human beings in the industry are going to go extinct. I think that all of these things will live together. And I also think that like to ignore this or call this folly is probably incorrect because the business model is a sound one, like it or not.

Will Inception Point A.I. Succeed or Fail?

Dusty Weis

See but that's where I'm not sure that it is. And you said something there, that we hear a lot from people on the pro AI side of things, and that is that “This technology is only going to get better and better and better.”

And I push back and say... I don't know the answer... but I push back and I say, “Is it?”

Because right now the AI industry is being fueled by this flood of venture capital that's flooding into it. And so they're able to make these fairly high quality, but very, very cheap or even free AI models available to anybody who wants to get their hands on them.

And if you look back at... and we did an episode of Lead Balloon earlier this year about... Netflix and the way that the quality of Netflix's programing has dropped off over the last several years, while at the same time, they've done the unthinkable and added advertising into their mix.

And it's because the venture capital ran out. It's because Netflix grew up as a company and had to start turning a profit. And right now, none of these AI LLM providers that are out there are turning anything close to a profit. They're being fueled purely by venture capital.

And so does this business model hold up in five years?

Jeff Umbro

Yeah. I mean, what you just explained is Google. They were fueled by venture capital and then they figured out advertising like...

I don't disagree with any of what you're saying, but like, I do think it's a lot more nuanced than what people are saying.

It's like politics. It's not like that guy's good and that guy's bad.

It's like, this is like a big, complicated conversation that needs to happen.

And I do think, genuinely, that there are different risks for this kind of business model. And I'll give you an example of that.

Spotify just cracked down on AI generated music and like white noise podcasts and that kind of thing, which were also, by the way, AI generated in a different industry.

And like, you don't hear... and I'm sure musicians are complaining about this, but like if you are a non-musician, this is not really a part of the conversation. Like this is, I think, very isolated to our industry today, which is like both good and bad.

But Spotify probably will at some point crack down on this stuff and like turn off advertising for these shows, for example, which would be like a potential death knell for like, this new company, if they're not able to monetize through programmatic on the main platform that does this stuff.

But like, we're not going to see that anytime soon, and there's probably going to be ways to avoid that in the future.

So like there are risks for sure. And one of those risks is like the way in which this was received initially by the industry. But I'm sure that maybe Jeanine was a little bit surprised by the amount of vitriol that came from this announcement. But like, even if you go on her LinkedIn and look at her post announcing the company, it's pretty even as to people congratulating her and people who are kind of flaming her in the comments.

How Did People React to Inception Point's Launch?

Dusty Weis

It's about 50/50, I would say. And certainly if you pick your way through it... and I did, I over-analyzed it. I went through and I'm like, oh, this person who's congratulating her is another venture capital CEO. And this person who is absolutely ripping her apart over it is clearly a podcast industry professional, a producer or a host or something like that.

And because I am a shallow bastard and because this is a show about public relations, I do have to read just a few of these comments that appeared on her post.

And this was, a lot of it, in reaction to the quote that she dropped in that article in Hollywood Reporter where she said, “I think that people who are still referring to all AI generated content as ‘AI slop’ are probably lazy Luddites.”

So here are just a few of the dozens of comments...

Jeff Umbro

I will say that, among other things, I would not have recommended using that quote.

Dusty Weis

Oh, we're talking about that next. We're talking about that next. But some of the quotes from her LinkedIn post:

“What's it like actively making the world worse on purpose all the time? What's the price tag on that?”

Another quote: “Your business model is to flood the market with so much trash that just a few listeners per episode is enough to make money. That's what spam is. You're a spammer. It's gross. You're a nihilist of the highest order.”

And the last one: “Do you really believe in this or is it just pantomime for the less discerning investors that you're hoping to attract?”

So you and a lot of the people that we've talked to, both anticipated a reaction like this, so much so that a bunch of people have decided that this is a third rail in podcasting right now and are not going to touch it.

Do you really think Jeanine was surprised by this reaction, or was this totally predictable?

Jeff Umbro

I mean, I don't know, I have not spoken to her about this. So like, I'm this is my words, not hers. But, I think that she maybe wasn't surprised by the reaction, but maybe was surprised by just, like, the amount of it. This was covered dozens of times in newsletters, blogs, LinkedIn posts.

And I will say, by the way, just because some of those comments actually, like I would have phrased them differently, but like, they're not wrong. I don't know what she should have anticipated, but I'm sure there was some degree of surprise because, you know, she has earned a lot of respect in the industry over the years.

Lessons From Inception Point's PR Disaster

Dusty Weis

I think that's part of what is driving some of the vitriol in the reaction is that a lot of people in the industry looked to her as a leader. And if you're a podcast producer or a podcast host, an executive producer, this might be something that feels like betrayal to you as someone who had previously pitched projects to her at Wondery or asked her for advice on pitching projects at Wondery.

And I'll say this as well. I look at the tone that she struck in that Hollywood Reporter article and some of the punchy things that she said, and wonder if she wasn't anticipating a little bit of reaction and chose to take that punchy tone as a way to sort of almost hit back at the critics before the critics hit her.

But was there, in your book... and you've hinted at it a little bit... Was there a better way for Inception Point AI to announce its presence to the world than calling people “lazy Luddites?”

Jeff Umbro

Certainly not doing that. If this were me, like, anticipating some of their reaction to this, and they certainly did anticipate it, because if you read the article, it says that they've been around since 2023. So like part of that, I'm sure, was that they were beta testing and working out the kinks for what they were doing. And part of that is that they knew that they were going to have some kind of reaction to this that probably wouldn't be kind.

There are a million different ways that you could have swung this, but, I think The Hollywood Reporter is probably not the outlet that, like, should have taken this. They're usually, you know, folks who are going to announce like a more splashy, like, celebrity driven title or something. If you wanted this to really hammer in on the techiness of what you're doing, go to a Tech Crunch or something for the announcement.

Or better yet, draft your own release and publish it on your blog. And like, you know, silently release this to the world.

I'm sure she did a lot of this, but go and have a bunch of closed door meetings with people in the industry and talk to them about their potential concerns so that they're not caught off guard by something like this.

This is a tiny company. This is a company that has existed for two years that has, like it said, a few million downloads. I think it said 10 million downloads or something. That's not that much money.

I know that the fear is like what this can become, but today, it's not a huge revenue driver.

And even if it made $100,000 that went to this company or something, that is not going to a creator who did this a different way, there is nothing really to fear with what's happening today with this organization.

Dusty Weis

Well then I'll point out as well. And I can't help but play devil's advocate on this as a public relations, or former public relations professional, that Inception Point AI is still at this stage in its development where the main audience that they're courting is potential investors—not listeners, not podcast industry professionals.

In fact, they've made it clear that they don't really need those.

And you can make the argument that any buzz is good buzz at this stage. So let's zoom out. In three months, in a year, does it matter for the future of this company that they got absolutely flamed in September of ‘25?

Jeff Umbro

It might. And the reason I mention that is not necessarily because of the producers and everybody who hated this, but because of the platforms. Because they still need to keep the producers happy.

That said, you know, Jeanine just so happens to have been an executive at two of the four largest. So, I don't know if there's a ton to fear for her in that regard, but yeah, I don't know.

I think the jury's out on how this is going to develop. And I think, if we look at this three, six, 12 months from now, maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly think this is going to be one of those things that just keeps going in the background and like, we don't really talk that much about it in the future.

Jeff Umbro

I think we're going to be seeing a lot more stuff like this. Like it or not.

Dusty Weis

Nobody ever went broke pandering to the lowest common denominator.

And it could just be that what Jeanine and Inception Point AI have identified is a new lowest common denominator. But, I do think that they'll make money off of it, at least until the LLMs raise their prices and maybe price them out of business here. But...

Jeff Umbro

It's funny because I think that that could happen. And also, like, they could just get more efficient and instead of paying a dollar an episode, they could pay $0.50.

Dusty Weis

That's true. Yeah. There's a there's a lot untold about the future right now. And it's why I was so excited to pick your brain about this, because you do bring a depth of knowledge and a nuance to it that I think is clearly lacking in some of the halfcocked things that people have posted to LinkedIn, myself included.

Jeff Umbro

Well, it's just funny because it's like, and I know I'm probably going to hear some things about this that people don't like what I had to say.

But, I truly hope that this doesn't work because I just don't think that overall it is going to be like a net positive for the industry.

But I think if this fails, there's going to be ten things that replace it in a week.

In fact, there probably already are. And we're just not talking about them because they're not as high profile.

So I think rather than just, you know, saying that this is like the end of the world and the decimation of our industry, we should all be thinking about ways in which we can get smarter with using these tools to make shows in the way in which we want to make them.

I'm not suggesting that people put out “AI slop” or whatever you want to call it.

Dusty Weis

I'll add to that, too, in a lot of ways… And I don't think this will be the end of the industry one way or the other. Because in a lot of ways, podcasting has always had to compete with... and I'll call it “inferior content” that's out there. We're always competing with other people for attention spans.

Jeff Umbro

Just like every other industry.

Dusty Weis

And we succeed by creating things that are better and more in-depth and more human than some of the stuff that's out there. And so this is really just an extension of that, I would say.

Jeff Umbro

Well, yeah. And on that note, though, this is a game of attention. And you're always just looking to get the ears of somebody, and I'll be blunt, if you are able to do a better job than AI generated slop, then you should. And if you're worried about this AI generated content stealing your listeners, then maybe you need to make a different show.

Dusty Weis

Thousand percent. Great wisdom there from Jeff Umbro. He is the CEO of the Podglomerate and a long time friend, first time guest on the podcast, and we sure are grateful that you made the time, man.

Jeff Umbro

Thanks, Dusty. Really appreciate it.

Dusty Weis

23 years as a professional storyteller. And I've said it from day one, whether it's podcasts or content marketing or social media or smoke signals, the way that you win at communicating is by being the most original and the most insightful and the most human. And Ronald Young, Jr. is someone who's exemplified that in his career as a popular, world renowned podcast host.

You had better believe that he’s got thoughts on the notion that artificial intelligence could ever take his job.

That’s coming up in a moment, here on Lead Balloon.

A Podcast Host's Reaction: Ronald Young, Jr.

Dusty Weis

This is Lead Balloon, and I’m Dusty Weis.

We’re joined now by Ronald Young, Jr., a recognized and respected voice in the podcast industry and a regular contributor to NPR’s Pop Culture Happy Hour.

In the past, he's hosted podcast from Slate, Pushkin, Pineapple Street and Lemonada. And he is best known for his work on the show Weight For It, a narrative show about navigating the world as someone who thinks a lot about his weight and his body.

He's not just a good podcast host. His peers and I anointed him as the best podcast host at this year's Podcast Academy Awards. So Ron, congratulations again on that, and thank you for joining us here on Lead Balloon.

Ronald Young, Jr.

Great to be here, Dusty.

Dusty Weis

Ron, I saw a lot of people who had really visceral reactions to the Inception Point AI announcement this month. Certainly I did. I said some things that I didn't ever think that I would be saying on LinkedIn, but here we are. And certainly yours was up there as well. Where were you and what were you doing when you read this story?

Ronald Young, Jr.

Well, before we before I get into that, I want to just make a quick comment about LinkedIn, which is that... once I figured out that I was freelance and remembered that I am not beholden to anyone, my language on LinkedIn started changing in a way that I know that other people's can't, which is why I've been talking the way I've been talking on LinkedIn.

I don't remember exactly what I was... No, you know, actually, yes, I do. Yes, I do.

I'm on Instagram, I'm looking at my phone and I see that James Kim has posted something on his Instagram and it was the article. The caption read, “What type of cartoon villain stuff is this?” And he didn't say stuff, but I remember laughing out loud, but then reading the article and stopped laughing because I was like, “oh, this is certainly cartoon villainous to me.”

So I read the article. I got angrier and angrier the deeper into it I got, and then I just felt like, I wanted to talk to my colleagues about this. So I posted it on LinkedIn and, yeah, the rest of it. Now, here we are.

Dusty Weis

I want to drill down on that a little bit, though. What made you angry? You called this a line in the sand. Explain what you mean by that.

How to Succeed as a Podcast Host

Ronald Young, Jr.

It is very difficult in podcasting to have any sort of success. You can make a show… that's a success, that's a personal success. You can publish it, put it out, get a couple of listeners. That's also a success.

To actually cut through all the noise, to make it to the proverbial top of the mountain, it takes teamwork. It can't be just you.

It takes not just the audience listening, the quality of sound, the quality of content. And if you're lucky, you get to work with some sort of corporation or outlet or some sort of partner that helps feed you the kind of rocket fuel that you need to get to the top in a lot of cases.

So when I read something like this from a company that's essentially saying we don't want the talent in between, which is the talent is the person that is hosting the show.

They're doing the reading. And if you're in podcasting, most people who sit in the talent seat, if you're not a celebrity, we have cut tape, we have written scripts, we have a logged tape. We have taken all of our recording equipment over to somebody's house, set up a mic stand and done the recording.

Dusty Weis

You have done all of the grunt work, all of the emotional trials to get to the point where you're even qualified to sit down and tell people what you think.

Ronald Young, Jr.

Yes, yes. And I did a lot of work to be able to sit in front of a mic and start talking. I wasn't just reckless, I wasn't a guy who just set up in his garage and started talking. There was a lot of thought before I went into making my very first podcast episode, which was Time Well Spent, and that was back in 2018. So a lot of work went into it.

For me to read an article in which you're saying that we're putting out 3000 episodes. And say maybe the next new Joe Rogan will be AI... It spits in the face of all the real human work. And the funny thing about this, Dusty, is I'm wondering if I'm leading the charge on some New Age bigotry. You know what I mean?

Ethical Concerns About A.I. Podcast Hosts

Dusty Weis

Look, I've seen Blade Runner, man. Okay. Yeah. I get it, I know that, but also. And I think what you drive at here is something really important because Jeanine Wright is quoted in that Hollywood Reporter article as saying, “We believe that in the near future, half the people on the planet will be AI, and we are the company that's bringing those people to life.”

And that quote hit me like a hammer, dude. Because AI is not people. And people are not AI. They are two very separate things. And for someone to equate them with each other, that cracks open a whole Pandora's Box of legal and ethical questions.

Okay, if AI is a person, does AI get to vote in elections? If you unplug an AI, is that murder?

Like you can go down a really weird rabbit hole really quick here. And I'm sorry, I didn't sign up for that ride.

Ronald Young, Jr.

Neither did I.

Dusty Weis

I don't vote for that.

Ronald Young, Jr.

No. We're already I mean, we're in a free speech crisis right now. Could you imagine what it'd be like if all of the sudden we throw in the wants and needs of AI, right?

Dusty Weis

Like we're already devaluing the value of people in our society, right now.

Ronald Young, Jr.

We actively do that well enough by ourselves! We don't need any help.

Dusty Weis

I've been doing this for a long time now, doing the audio thing, being a professional communicator, a professional storyteller. And I've watched the friction between the people who monetize and the people who produce, for lack of a better term. Are you at all surprised that someone would try to cut the human out of human expression at this point?

Ronald Young, Jr.

No, not at all. Because, I mean, they're still trying to make up for the money that they lost, betting incorrectly on podcasts in 2020 or 2019 or whenever they made that Joe Rogan deal.

Dusty Weis

That big explosion of money that flowed into the podcast space. While it used to be about collaboration and building each other up, something that they wanted to be about domination and winning.

Ronald Young, Jr.

That's exactly it. It was a cash grab. And I think if you look at that business model, what they expected from that business model was to be able to essentially print money from advertisers who were buying spots on podcasts. And somehow that was, you know, that was netting the wealth or keeping the lights on, allowing them to make more shows.

A lot of folks were banking on that business model to work. And it's not that that business model doesn't work. It just it's not super scalable... It's not quickly scalable, I should say, in most cases. If you look at it, there's people that are surviving, doing exactly that, making podcasts and getting ad revenue. But most of those places are very small.

They're not massive corporations. And if you want to be a massive corporation and make a lot of money, then there is some humanity that you have to subtract from the equation in order to make the most amount of money that you possibly can. And this just feels like this is just that. It's that simple to me.

Similarities Between Radio and Podcasting

Dusty Weis

It's just that. And it reminds me so much of what happened to the radio industry 25, 30 years ago, when the big conglomerates started buying up radio stations.

Ronald Young, Jr.

When Clear Channel became iHeart. I was there.

Dusty Weis

I was there too man, it was not pretty. And frankly, I think that our media and our society are worse for it. It's something that we rant about for hours and hours.

But to play devil's advocate against myself for a second, when I worked in radio, I was a news reporter, and my job was to report the news, to go out, find stories, and tell those stories.

And we were kept completely separate from the sales team, the people who monetized what we did. And now that I'm a business owner, now that I am, a freelance podcast producer, I have to look back at that and be like, okay, well, they kind of had a hard job too. Like, I get it, I have new respect for the monetization of what we do right now.

But also I will say that about ten, 15 years ago, I noticed and maybe you noticed the same thing, a shift in the way that the industry talks about what we do. They shifted from calling it programing to calling it... “Content.”

Ronald Young, Jr.

“Content.” Yep.

Dusty Weis

And I think that this is telling because content literally means stuff that fills an empty vessel. And I think that we've seen that shift in terminology mirror a shift in attitude that more and more don't care what's filling that space, as long as it gets attention and can be monetized as impressions.

Now, I certainly don't want to romanticize the past. It's always been about money. It's always been about monetizing. But I would say that there's a moral imperative to create content that serves a purpose beyond just making money. Whether the purpose is to inspire, to inform, to entertain, to educate. Can an AI LLM do that in 2025, or ever?

Ronald Young, Jr.

I mean, you know, everything that you just described was what public radio and public broadcasting was supposed to be and the business model was listener supported. Support your local independent public radio station. Support them. They are a network. They're networked through NPR. But when you support them, they're able to do exactly what you said, report the news that is informative and sometimes entertaining.

And for years and years that was working. They got some federal money, which now we're at a whole ‘nother kerfuffle about, you know, what I mean? Like, all of that changed.

I don't mind the name of content creation because it is a word that is more inclusive to say, what is everyone doing? Well, I'm making something which is okay, and I don't like the idea that it's just filling a void because I believe that to be true.

But if they're making something... So I start there, right?

The effort that it goes to, even sitting in your car and reviewing fried chicken, which I see people do on Instagram, is something that it's important because I feel like I have some sort of connection with the human that is doing that. And for that person to continue doing that, they'll set out a little tip jar, they'll set out a little Patreon or a Substack to say, like, this is how we're getting this done, or I'm funneling my own money into it, or I have very light advertising, but you cobble enough of that stuff together, you nickel and dime enough of that stuff and you have revenue coming in. It actually works. But I feel like when revenue is the only goal, then I think you should think of a new line of business, because content creation is not the thing that necessarily is going to be... you know what I mean?

Dusty Weis

Maybe just quit and take a walk in the woods and rethink your life priorities, man, because, yeah.

How to Stop A.I. Content

Ronald Young, Jr.

Go to finance school! You know what I mean? Go to Wall Street! And I only say that to say like, that's why it's easy for folks to say, let's replace the human with AI. The goal for them is revenue. Once they do that... and they said it already in the article. They said, hey, we're already profitable, which means for them, we're going to keep doing it because it works for us.

And if that's the only goal that all I can hope is that the human listeners and the human content creators continue to keep creating and listening to real stuff made by real people, and let the people know that are trying to print this money, that this is a fool's errand.

Dusty Weis

Yeah. If you if you see AI and you don't like AI... I don't like AI. Hopefully a lot of people don't care for AI popping up in their feeds, whatever that feed may be. Just swipe past, just turn something else on. That is the only way that you can beat this.

And when you watch on Instagram, somebody reviewing chicken in their car. It's interesting because it's a human doing it. I don't want to hear what AI thinks about chicken. AI can't taste chicken!

Ronald Young, Jr.

It can't taste it! Yeah.

Dusty Weis

So what market... is there even a market for this? Does Jeanine Wright have an audience for her AI influencers?

Ronald Young, Jr.

I mean I'm sure somebody may listen to this. I'm sure there's someone that turns it on. And they just want noise in the background. I'm sure that that's the case.

I mean, I watch the Office over and over again, and Nathan For You over and over again, because it's comforting.

But I guess... now that I'm saying this, as I'm saying this, I do not find it to be true that I would put on an AI show as a bit of comfort, because most of what I like about those shows that I just mentioned is that they are thoughtfully made in a way that each time you watch, you are rewarded with something new that you may have missed on the first time. And that's something that can only be done through thoughtful crafting. And it's the difference between like, Ikea furniture and, the Amish folks in Pennsylvania making furniture. Like, there's a difference between us having to mass market something and putting it in a showroom versus someone whose whole job is to make you a chair. A sturdy chair.

Dusty Weis

But don't put it like that Ron, because Ikea is crushing it. Because Ikea is taking over the world. That does not bode well!

Ronald Young, Jr.

No, it's true. And yes, they're making money, but like, you don't see me bragging or making the centerpiece of my home the Ikea furniture. You know what I mean? When you walk in my house, you're going to see a couch that I paid, like, real money for from a real furniture store.

Dusty Weis

So if this is a line in the sand, Ron, what does it mean for the future of our industry now that someone has crossed it?

Ronald Young, Jr.

I think for me when I say line in the sand I'm talking to my colleagues, I'm talking to you, I'm talking to the folks that could see it, that say if you are supporting this, then I don't know if we can work together anymore.

Because at some point somebody has to stand up and say, I'm not going to be a part of this. There has to be a line that goes too far that all of us, as colleagues agree that this is the one we don't cross. And I think when we talk about generative AI in this specific way, because most people use AI tools every day, I don't have a problem with that. To me, that's a place where technology went.

But if you don't let the human be the one to be the brain, the one to actually do the generating of whatever the content is, then for me, I'm wondering then what are humans for? What do we do, Dustin? At that point...

Dusty Weis

Like I saw The Matrix, man. We’re batteries. That’s it.

Ronald Young, Jr.

Yeah! We’re batteries or we’re delivering food. Like those are the only jobs we’ll be able to get in the future, you know what I mean? And God bless those jobs. Like, there's nothing wrong with, like, like working DoorDash, working Uber or any of that Lyft, any of that.

But I'm saying they're putting us in a position where those are the only jobs that we're going to be able to do, you know what I mean? Because everything else is done by a bot, you know?

Dusty Weis

Yeah, yeah. No. I love your idea of drawing a line in the sand. I love your idea of talking to other people in the industry. It’s something that Jeff brought up too, this notion that the quickest way for this business model to fail is if the Spotifys and Megaphones of the world step up and say, no, not on our platform, you're not going to tap into our programmatic ad marketplace.

There's no way for you to monetize this any more. That instantly changes the game. And I think that that's something that we as industry professionals can work toward today. Start picking up the phone, sending those text messages, getting out there and having conversations with people that this doesn't feel right.

Ronald Young, Jr.

I think that's a perfect action step. I think right now we're going to look at this and say, what can we do? What can we do? But you actually described what action looks like to say, who do we need to put pressure on to say, this is a problem and we should not be endorsing this? And you're absolutely right.

It's whoever the distributors are saying, do you want to carry this type of slop in your library? Because it's got to be is there actually a place for this type of thing in your library? Should you be considering a place for this type of thing in your library?

Dusty Weis

Well, and frankly, if that's going to happen on an industry wide basis, it's going to take passionate voices like yours, people standing up, people organizing. And so we're so very grateful that you took the time to do it. Ronald Young Jr., you are the host of a ton of podcasts, including Weight For It, a narrative show that I absolutely loved getting to judge as a part of the Blue Ribbon Committee for the Podcast Academy Awards.

Yours is an example of all the best that podcasting has to offer in human insights and human stories. So we thank you for taking the time to join us here today on Lead Balloon.

Ronald Young, Jr.

Thanks for having me, Dusty. It's been great.

Dusty Weis

And thank you for tuning in.

Here on Lead Balloon, we take a look at the how and the why and the what? of communicating strategically. Because we're just nerdy like that, and sometimes we learn something that's useful to us in PR and marketing.

So we hope to see you back here in this feed again sometime soon. Follow us on your favorite podcast app or check out our YouTube feed.

Lead Balloon is produced by Podcamp Media, where we provide branded podcast production solutions for businesses. Our podcast studios are located in the heart of beautiful downtown Milwaukee, Wisconsin. We work with brands all over North America to help them launch and build podcasts that work. Check out our website, PodcampMedia.com.

Music for this episode by Neon Beach.

Dialogue editing by Matt Covarrubias.

And until the next time, folks, thanks for listening. I'm Dusty Weis.