An Austin, TX-based creator finds that the best way to make music for games is to make your own games.
On this episode, Larry & Clinton speak with Matt Meyer, Creative Director and founder for Hiding Spot Games. Their newest game, Beacon Pines, is a point and click adventure that takes place inside a story book, and is available on multiple platforms.
In this fun chat, they talk about how Matt's love of music, and desire to work for himself, fueled his desire to make his own games. They'll also talk about the challenges he's faced creating games over the last twelve years, how and why Beacon Pines changed from a rhythm-based RPG into the fun adventure game it is now, and what we might be able to expect from Hiding Spot Games in the future.
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Find Beacon Pines on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1269640/Beacon_Pines/
Follow Beacon Pines on Twitter: https://twitter.com/beaconpines
Visiting the Hiding Spot Games website: https://hidingspotgames.com/
Follow Hiding Spot Games on Twitter: https://twitter.com/hidingspotgames
Transcript:
Larry Kilgore III:
Video games are an art form. From the bits and bites of the old school arcade cabinets to the technological advancements of the modern era, video games have been a way for creators to tell stories in an interactive environment that can be shared the world over.
Clinton Bader:
Developers, designers, visionaries, and storytellers, like the artisans of Old, it's their blood, sweat, and tears that go into crafting these unique and innovative experiences for players. But oftentimes, the independent artists get lost in the overwhelming space that is today's hectic gaming market. And on PixelSmiths, it's our goal to be a platform for those artists to celebrate their drive, their vision, and the work it takes to create their art.
Larry Kilgore III:
On this episode, we'll speak with the Austin, Texas based creative director behind Beacon Pines, a point and click storybook adventure, available on multiple platforms. This is PixelSmiths.
Hello and welcome to PixelSmiths. I'm Larry Kilgore III, podcast creator and video game enthusiast.
Clinton Bader:
And I'm Clinton 'Paper Thin' Bader, an eSports broadcaster and commentator. And we here at PixelSmiths want to give today's indie game developers a platform to highlight their passion, dedication, and artisanship.
Larry Kilgore III:
Today, we are talking with Matt Meyer, creative director of Hiding Spot Games. Their newest game, Beacon Pines is a cute and creepy point and click adventure set inside a magical storybook. Matt, thank you for joining us today on PixelSmiths.
Matt Meyer:
Thanks for having me.
Larry Kilgore III:
So Matt, Hiding Spot Games has been around for a little while and Beacon Pines isn't your first game. Can you tell us a bit about your company? What made you start making games in the first place and what things were like before you started making Beacon Pines?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah. It's been probably 12 years or so that I've been making games. I grew up in Chicago and had a corporate job there for a while, but then wanted to follow my passion, which was partly music and partly not working for other people. So I always dreamt about making music for games, played music since I was a kid. And when I moved to Austin, wanted to try something of my own, I figured it might be a good way to get into making music for games is just to make a game myself and then I get to put my music in the game so that's sort of how I got into it.
The first game I made with Brent, who was the co-writer on Beacon Pines, he did the art for the first big game that I made, which was, I mean big, it's only an hour long, but it took a lot of work. It's called Ephemerid and that was basically an album's worth of music with games wrapped around it. I got into it from the music angle, which is maybe a little different than most people.
Larry Kilgore III:
You made another game before Beacon Pines as well, Flipping Legend. What can you tell us about that game?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah. I mean, each of the games I've made are pretty different from each other. The first one was an album of music with games around it. The second one was Flipping Legend, which was a mobile game, a very sort of arcade action type game. It was almost like a high speed chess type of game. You have to think about every single move that you make, but it's on a timer so you have to think quickly. That one did pretty well, so it half funded Beacon Pines. We had to do a Kickstarter and sort of figure out funding in the second half of development because it always takes longer than you expect when you're making games. I always get in too deep. But yeah, luckily it was at least able to fund some of Beacon Pines.
Clinton Bader:
So you said that originally you got into this because you wanted to make music for games and that kind of thing. Where did the transition happen where you started doing kind of the full blown process instead of just music you were working on the whole thing?
Matt Meyer:
That was kind of from the start. So I made a very small game before Ephemerid that was just testing the waters to see that I can make a game in just a couple months. And that was a mobile game that I don't even think is available anymore because it hasn't been updated in, like I said, it's been about 12 years that have been making games. I don't think that's available anymore, but it was just a super simple game to see that I could do it. And after that, I decided to dig a little deeper with Ephemerid. I've always been doing pretty much everything but the art because that's the one thing I accept that I'm not great at, so I've always worked with other people. Each game has sort of been a different artist that I've worked with and I'm sure we'll talk about it more, but Ilse on Beacon Pines is the most legitimate artist I've worked with. The other ones are great too, but she's the only one who's like, she studied it and she does it for a living and she's amazing at it.
Larry Kilgore III:
Do you think the fact that you kind of have a music first thought about it changes the way that you approach the game design and the game structure?
Matt Meyer:
Absolutely. I think one of the biggest things that music brings is just atmosphere and vibe to a game. I think that's one of the things that's easy to forget about. Sometimes when people are developing games, they think about certain things first, like the mechanics and the action or whatever the player actions are. For me, I tend to enjoy games the most that have a really engrossing atmosphere that just suck you right in. You sort of forget that you're playing a game. I think music plays a big part of being able to do that with games. I always think about that throughout the entire development of the game. And so Beacon Pines, even though it's not like a music centric game, music is very important to it. I was writing music from the very start for the game. Sometimes it doesn't all click, but sometimes it really sort of helps form the vibe of like, okay, this is starting to feel like what the game is going to feel like to run around in and interact with.
Clinton Bader:
I think good music is always... Anything, any good art form, whatever it be, games, movies-
Larry Kilgore III:
Sound design is very important.
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, it hurts my heart when I watch streamers and they will turn the music down. I mean, I get it, they don't want to have their voice faded from the music, but it hurts my heart.
Larry Kilgore III:
I did want to ask. So I saw on your press kit, and I believe it was also on the website that the common thread between all Hiding Spot Games projects is feeling. The music, art, story, and gameplay all serve that common goal. Going into all of your projects, is that something that you're consciously always trying to make sure or is that just something that for you is innate [inaudible 00:05:32], it's something that's kind of always in the back of your mind?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, it's always in the back of my mind. Especially what I was just saying about the music, I think that's a big part of it, but it's obviously the other elements too, the story, the mechanics. Even the arcade-y sort of game I was mentioning Flipping Legend, the moment to moment, it's very important how that feels to me. So even though it's a little bit more fast paced and action based, still I want it to feel like you're sort of in this specific thing when you jump into the game, your body should feel like you're sort of centered in that world, if that makes sense.
Clinton Bader:
I like that. Let's change gears just a little bit here. When you decided to start your company, were you by yourself? If so, when did you add other people on to your project?
Matt Meyer:
So yeah, when I first started it was just me. Like I had mentioned it was just a very small game just to see that I could do it and release a game and it was a couple months, just a silly little game. But yeah, after making that, it felt like something I wanted to do. Brent, like I mentioned, the co-writer on Beacon Pines was just sort of floating between jobs and asked if he could help on my next game at all. And I said if you can do art, that's the one thing I can't do. He's not an artist, but we sort of settled on, if he was going to do art, we can maybe do it in an interesting way, which for Ephemerid was paper craft. So it was all, everything he cut by hand out of paper and photographed, and so then I brought it into the game.
So even though he is not a trained artist, the important thing was that it felt like sort of a tangible thing. It was for iPads, so it was all about touching and interacting with things as the music was going. So paper craft felt like a good fit for that, and you don't have to... I mean, there are really good paper craft artists out there. We actually hired one in Austin to do a trailer for the game at one point, which was really cool. But you could sort get away with not knowing all the ins and outs of making great art with paper craft because it's sort of supposed to feel like a childlike thing, that was intentional.
So then it sort of built up after that. Ephemerid was critically successful but not very financially successful, so I took a step away from making games for a while and just went back to doing contract work, which I had already been doing while developing the other games just to make ends meet. But at some point I just got the itch again when I was working full time to finish this game, which wound up being Flipping Legend that I was sort of poking at here and there. It's just so hard to make a game in your spare time when you're doing a full-time job. So I quit that job again, had some money saved up to sort of live meagerly and finish Flipping Legend. And I was lucky enough throughout that to work with an artist from London. His name was Thomas Whetnall, and he did all the voxel art for it.
I had met him when I was making Ephemerid. He had done all this really cool pixel art. We sort of crossed paths on some gaming forums. I just had pinged him at one point saying it's really cool pixel art, really fun animations at lo-res pixels, which always sort of catches my eye. So I asked him if he thought he would be able to do voxel art, which is pretty similar to pixel art just in 3D. So I think he knocked it out of the park. He also had a full-time job, so for him that was very much a side gig. He had babies at the time, but he always managed to... He's in not the same time zone, so I would wake up in the morning and there would just be all this cool stuff he was up late working on.
So that was just pure, we just did rev share for that. I was always baffled by him because he had so much trust that this person that he just knew from online, we never met in person or anything, I mean we obviously had calls and knew each other well at least over the internet, but he was always so chill about everything. Even when checks started coming in for Flipping Legend, I had to bug him to get his bank info to send him his rev share. And a part of that I'm sure was he did have a full-time job so he wasn't depending on this to make a living, but it was really fun.
And so I think I've gotten lucky with that because then Beacon Pines rolled around and I had some funds from Flipping Legend to sort get the ball rolling on that. And so I was looking to work with another artist on something that was a little more fully illustrated and I didn't think Thomas would maybe have the bandwidth to do that because he had a full-time job and I wasn't about to ask him to quit his stable job with kids and everything to work on something that might not be successful. So I found Ilse just, again, online, ArtStation. I was looking at portfolios and sent out a bunch of feelers and she was one of the few who got back to me and we had a call and just really sort clicked on our ideas for what the game might be.
It's really just me full-time, it's always kind of how it's been, and then I work with contract. Like for Ilse, I would take as many hours as she was willing to give, and she did at one point get a full-time job with a really cool art consulting studio, which is her dream job but she still finished Beacon Pines and everything. But I was happy that she got that job, but a little sad. I want to keep getting amazing art from her.
Larry Kilgore III:
Yeah. You're going to have to find a new artist for the next project.
Matt Meyer:
Yeah.
Larry Kilgore III:
So according to your own website, Beacon Pines is your most ambitious project so far. What was the goal from the project when you first started? We'll talk about this in a little bit. I know that the concept itself changed drastically, but going into it, what was your thoughts about what the game would be, how populated you think it would be, the reach, the scope, and the target audience that you had?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, so the target audience did definitely change. When I was starting to think about and prototype ideas for what would become Beacon Pines, the goal has become more and more for me, I want to make this into a business, I don't want to keep having to do contract work to fund the games I make because it's just a bummer if you have to set things aside for several months or if you're having to do it in the nighttime after a full day of work on other stuff.
So the dream for me is always being able to do this full time and I got close with Beacon Pines, and hopefully I'll be able to make the next game without looking through the couch cushions this time. I mean, that's always in the back of my head. Obviously as someone who creates things, you want to make something that's interesting and different, brings something different to the table, not just replicating stuff that's already out there. So in a way it's sort of this constant struggle between, I know I would be capable to make a certain type of game that might be a more guaranteed success, like in a genre that's a lot more popular. Visual novel/adventure games are pretty niche in terms of at least not having a very broad demographic base. But yeah, it's always this push and pull. Even when I'm doing something, I think this can be successful, but I also want to do an interesting version of it.
Clinton Bader:
So this game is targeted towards maybe a younger adult audience or something to that effect. And even though it's kind of creepy, it still has a lot of light and fun feel for it. Why did you want to go for this dichotomy of styles that kind of come into the game and how did it come out as more of a serious adult targeted thing?
Matt Meyer:
It wasn't ever a really intentional, just how the development went. When Brent and I started writing the story for the game and even before that, Ilse as well, we were all talking about the story elements for it. And even though her art is lush environments with these cute characters running around populating the town, we wanted to write a story that was for us. We are adults and we wanted to write something that we would enjoy, both because we would be better at doing that than trying to write kid's book, which we have been kids, but that's not like our wheelhouse. We think we'd be better suited for writing something for ourselves. And we like mysterious stories and subject matters that get a little more serious, so that's just what we wound up doing, even though the art, again, was sort of Ilse's natural way of doing the art, is this really these adorable characters with really awesome illustrated portraits. And some of that did come from the original version of the game, which maybe we'll get to as well.
Larry Kilgore III:
Actually, that's what I would like to talk about next. I feel like this is a very unique thing to happen, but when the game originally started, I believe it was a rhythm based RPG, and I think I actually found a little bit of YouTube footage kind of showing what the original prototype was. But obviously, right now it's much more of a virtual storybook. What brought you to the point of what you were originally working on, which was the RPG, and what and why did you end up deciding like, oh, we need to go in this completely different direction and make what is now Beacon Pines as opposed to what the original idea was?
Matt Meyer:
You could probably guess from what I was saying earlier about my history getting into games that I was looking to make another sort of very music based game. And so the idea was you'd have these battles that sort of revolve around a track of music and the actions that you would take, you would line them up with beats and then you'd see it play out. The enemies would also have things that would happen on beats. So if they're attacking, you might want to put your defensive move on that beat so it matches at the right spot and then you hit play and it all plays out. And it was pretty cool. As you mentioned, we had a prototype and there's videos of it and it's got amazing art and music and everything and it's working, but it never quite felt like it had that little bit of magic that I wanted it to. The mechanics, even though it was an interesting spin on that sort of arena battler thing, putting this rhythm element into it, still didn't feel like it added enough more than just the gimmick of it.
So what we struggled to find there wound up being the thing that we just dropped because along the way we had these little environments that Ilse was creating that you would use to interact with characters and move between these battles. And that was the thing that we all felt like was, there's something sort of magical about just that simple act of walking around these environments and interacting with characters, so let's just drop the battle part and focus on that. It really did completely change the sort of nature of the game and the genre even, but it was what felt like needed to happen.
Clinton Bader:
So then you've come to this idea that the storybook aspect of the game is going to be the direction that you want to go. Now I think the interesting part about it is that you don't go in a linear story necessarily, it's a branching story, and you can even rewind and come back and do things like that. Walk me through, not only the process of getting to that decision, but also why you thought that was interesting and why you thought that would work for this game.
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, so a little bit of context to connect what the game was versus what it is now. Again, the business side of me was like if I want to do this for a living, I need to make a game that has appeal and a hook and something that differentiates it from all the other games, which was the rhythm element sounded cool, then I threw that away. So then it's like, okay, I've thrown away the hook, now if I keep doing this game is just an RPG battle game that there's millions of these days. So throwing that away and focusing on the story, okay, there's also a bunch of other story games. We need to think of interesting things or at least one or two new elements that we add to the equation to differentiate this from other story heavy games.
And the first thought that sort of stuck was this idea of charms, which at the time the idea was just you'll collect words and they'll be used to change the story. There's a lot of different design that went into figuring out what that even means and how that works. Are they things that you bring with you? Do they go away after you use them these words? Are they one usage things? Are there categories of the words? Are they all used in the same way or are some of them side story words that you can use more easily and then the main story words are a lot more important?
We sort wound up focusing on you have these charms with words on them that you find throughout the story and the environment. And then through the process of that, we realized one interesting thought there is what if it's not only that you're bringing these words with you, which you could think of as of your decision tokens are these charms, where in most narrative games you might select lines of dialogue in any given conversation with a character, this is your decisions come with you. So there's these tokens that you're carrying with you in your inventory as opposed to just doing it at the time of each conversation. So that's interesting.
But what's even more interesting is what if you can go find a charm down the line in the game, bring it back to a totally different point in the game that you didn't have access to it earlier. We almost think of it like a Metroidvania in that way, where you might have been exposed to this area that you couldn't access early in the game, but then you progress down these other areas. In sort of a Metroidvania, you might find an ability and realize, wait, that might unlock this whole other area where it was like ice and I needed to melt that to get through kind of thing. That's sometimes how we think of the charms internally.
We don't really say that a lot because it's a very loaded word, Metroidvania. Like how is this a Metroidvania? But with the design, that's how we thought about it sometimes. That's where the Chronicle comes in, this whole UI for representing the branching story, and lets you jump around to what we call the turning points where you use those charms to completely change the trajectory of the story. It was a long process designing the game. It was years of figuring out how that all worked and what it meant.
Larry Kilgore III:
I will say in my experience, it really feels like a choose your own adventure story, but in a video game format. How do you feel about that comparison?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, we're fine with that. I mean, we all enjoyed those as kids too. Yeah, there's definitely a big element of that and a little bit of Mad Libs vibes too in the way that you choose words. Even though it's a little More, Mad Libs, it sort of turns into nonsense sentences and that's why it's fun. Whereas in Beacon Pines, we worked very hard making sure the sentences made sense because it needs to determine the story from that point on.
Larry Kilgore III:
Well Matt, it's been fun learning about you, your company, and the inspirations you had for your unique game. After the break, I'd like to talk more about the development of Beacon Pines and how it morphed from the original concept into the game that you released. We'll be back in a moment with more from Matt Meyer of Hiding Spot Games here on PixelSmiths.
This is Pixel Smiths, the podcast that gives a voice to today's indie game developers. I'm Larry Kilgore III.
Clinton Bader:
And I'm Clinton 'Paper Thin' Bader, and we're talking to Matt Meyer of hiding spot games, creator of Beacon Pines. So you were with Fellow Traveler for a little over a year or something like that. What did they think when you kind of had to shift gears with the game? So we talked about this before the break, where we had to change it from a rhythm based game into the story driven kind of novel type game. Were they concerned, were there any issues that came with that? How did that process shape out for you?
Matt Meyer:
Luckily for them, we had already made that pivot before signing with them. Sort of around the time that we did the Kickstarter is when we had made that pivot and really figured out what the game was going to be like, how the story based narrative stuff worked with jumping around and charms and chronicle and everything. Once we sort of had a functional MVP of that, we did the Kickstarter. And after doing a successful Kickstarter, we started getting attention from publishers at that point. So Fellow Traveler I had known from... They just publish a lot of really good narrative games, that's sort of their focus. So they were definitely on our radar.
We talked to some other bigger ones too, but it felt just more natural for us to go with Fellow Traveler because they have such a good reputation with story based games. And they also run something called LudoNarraCon each year, which is a big Steam festival with other, not just their own published games, but other studios' narrative games, which was really fun. We did that a couple months before we signed with them. They were on our radar and we had sort of a good rapport with them from that event. So yeah, when we were making the decision to sign with a publisher, it just felt like the best fit.
Larry Kilgore III:
I know you made the pivot before you did the Kickstarter, you got the publisher, but obviously you had built a prototype and things like that for the original, and I'm sure you had some people that were interested or at least thought it was an interesting idea. What was the response you got from the community when you decided to pivot the game?
Matt Meyer:
We hadn't talked a whole lot about the original, but after we started getting traction with Beacon Pines and anytime someone would find that video of the original prototype or if I mentioned, one point I think I did a Reddit post about that whole evolution of the game, and people inevitably ask, "Is that game going to be made?" Because again, that's a part of the appeal of that idea is it had this hook, it's an interesting idea, we just never quite found the full game version of that idea. So it's probably never going to exist, even though a lot of people seem to want that. If we ever figured it out, that would've been the game, but we never quite figured it out. I think it would be awesome if someone else sort of took that idea and figured it out, but we'll never know I guess.
Clinton Bader:
We always have to ask about this because the show is all about the process of making video games and to let people learn about that. And so I think it's important to learn from your mistakes. So in the process of making Beacon Pines, what was the biggest challenge you faced? Let's go past the point of where you pivoted. Once you have the publisher and all that, what was the biggest thing that kind of hindered the development of the game or the biggest hurdle you had to overcome?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, there's a lot. It's just such a giant undertaking to make a game. Even some people from the outside might look at something like Beacon Pines and think that's a small game. For me, it's my biggest, most intense game development experience yet. So yeah, I mean the general theme of the mistakes is always trying to do too much. When a game is done, it's like that's the time I realize certain things that I spent so much time on, I probably didn't need to and some of the random little things that I spent couple hours doing are some of the things that the most people notice. There's these little animations in the game of Luca sliding off the chair a little kid might do in a chair that's too big for you. Little things like that people's eyes light up at. And then other things like certain sound effects or just random little moments that I would spend a day on and no one ever, they just walk right past it.
So it's always a struggle for indies and I'm sure AAA too, even though I've never made a triple a game, but trying to keep focused, do the minimum thing that you can get done, and then when it makes sense, come back and polish it all. I have this very obsessive personality where I want everything to be perfect and then you wind up throwing stuff away, like even entire prototypes of games. That's like, oh great, I wasted six months and I probably could have figured that out in a much simpler version. There's always like this nagging in the back of your head, like maybe it needs to be polished for me to make that decision, maybe I can't move past this until I know I've given it my best shot and then I know it doesn't work.
Larry Kilgore III:
On that note, kind of speaking about the development and the challenges you had and making sure that you can accomplish what you want in the time with the resources that you have, what's something that you wanted to add to the game that you just didn't have the time or the ability to?
Matt Meyer:
It sort of falls into, is there something that I wanted the game to be that it's not, and maybe it's just my subconscious refusing to accept that I put so much of myself into this and it's not the thing I wanted it to be. And the rest of the team, I hope from us all talking about it, they feel the same way, but this is the ideal version of this game. It could have been a million other things, but what it wound up being, I think we did it justice.
I think maybe some more branches to the story would've made it more fulfilling or at least given it a longer play time. It runs like six, six and a half hours, but that's kind of the duration I wanted it to be. I don't want this to be a 20 hour game. I'm an adult with a lot of work and I don't have a whole lot of time to play games. So again, the same thing with a story being a little bit more serious and adult, I want to make a thing that I would want to play, which is a short but heartfelt and sort of significant experience, not just something that you might play for 80 hours without even thinking about it.
Clinton Bader:
Looking to the future now, we want to know what's on the horizon for Hiding Spot Games. Do you have more Beacon Pines content planned or are you working on something new? What can you tell us?
Matt Meyer:
Yeah, a little bit of both. We have a update, hopefully we'll be ready in the next month or two with a little cooking mini game. There's a fishing mini game in it right now. Those are both a part of the Kickstarter stretch goals. They just sort of add a nice little extra bits of story. Like catch fish, you get little interactions with in this memory that Luca has with his dad to fill in some of the side story gaps and just some information about things that aren't critical to the main story path, but give you a larger sense of the town.
So the cooking mini game is going to be in the same vein. We already actually have the art for it. You'll make these little burgers in the diner that's in town and serve them to characters in, again, a memory sort of form and get little story tidbits from those characters. And then potentially in a year or so we might try and line up a Halloween update with Beacon Pines too. We haven't quite figured out what that might look like, so no promises there whether it's even going to happen, but that's something we've been thinking about. And obviously over the next year or so we can continue to think about that. But that feels like a good, if we're going to do a bit more of an update, a good timing to do it.
Larry Kilgore III:
And that seems like something that perfectly matches with the feel of the game too, to do something for Halloween.
Matt Meyer:
Yeah. We always had sort of in our heads these images of the kids wearing costumes and stuff too, like Ramona in spacesuit or something. But the really fun part of game development is just talking about fun ideas for the next game, which we've already started to indulge a little bit in our meetings. Ilse has some ideas for games that she'd like to make and I definitely want to try those out, because I mean, her art is amazing and her sense for storytelling is really good too. I think we'll all probably make another game together. I'm definitely going to be prototyping stuff because that's just, again, it's one of the fun parts of making games. So nothing solid yet, but we have a lot of ideas. It's like this is the most fun part, when you don't have to actually do the work of making the game, you can just think about all the possible versions of the game. And then I'm sure we'll like have an idea that this is going to be the game, then we'll make it for six months, and then totally pivot something different like we did with Beacon Pines.
Larry Kilgore III:
Well, Matt, it has been a blast hearing from you talking about your journey and how you made Beacon Pines happen. I, for one, think this is a fun and interesting game and I hope it continues to be well received by the community. Thank you so much for taking the time to tell your story here on PixelSmiths.
Matt Meyer:
Thanks.
Larry Kilgore III:
The music in this episode was written and performed by Matt Meyer and is from the Beacon Pines soundtrack. Beacon Pines is available now on PC, Xbox, and Nintendo Switch. Learn more about Hiding Spot Games on their website, hidingspotgames.com, or follow them on Twitter @HidingSpotGames. You can also follow Beacon Pines on Twitter @BeaconPines. PixelSmiths is brought to you by Podcamp Media, where we provide branded podcast production services for businesses podcampmedia.com. Executive producer is Dusty Weis, and I oversee editing and production.
Clinton Bader:
And you can follow me, Clinton Bader on social media @PaperThinHere and on twitch.tv/paperthinhere.
Larry Kilgore III:
Thanks for tuning into PixelSmiths. I'm Larry Kilgore III.
Clinton Bader:
And I'm Clinton 'Paper Thin' Bader.